Diversity & Inclusion: More Than A Checkbox
EPISODE 3 — 27 NOVEMBER 2021
“Sometimes I do feel like I don’t belong, like no one to relate to - no one that looks like, or sounds like me... which makes me like I almost need to put up a more ‘professional’ version of myself in the workplace.”
ABOUT THE EP
In Episode 3, we talk about a very important topic - diversity and inclusion (D&I) in the workplace. We reflect on our personal experiences with workplace diversity, times when we've spoken up, the conscious decisions we make at work, and how we can promote change.
THE DETAILS
Defining D&I - what's the difference?
Uncomfortable situations at work
The conscious decisions we have to make
Why inclusive and accessible design matters
Giving out fortune cookies for Chinese New Year
What individuals vs organisations can do about D&I
Reflecting on our use of inclusive language
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Wendy
Hi, everyone. We'll come back to our podcast episode three.
Tracy
Hi, friends. It’s actually launch day today for us.
Wendy
Yeah, we're obviously recording ahead of time, but it is a very exciting day. A very long time coming. Yes, everything went pretty smoothly, don't you think, Tracy?
Tracy
I think yes, I think so, except some tech issues that we're still working through at the moment.
Wendy
Yeah, we just find ourselves struggling to connect our microphones in the most optimal way each episode.
Tracy
I feel like we are going to be tech experts by the end of this.
Wendy
Yeah, we're going to be production managers.
Tracy
Career change coming up. So, Wendy, how was your week this week?
Wendy
It was good. I spent a lot of time at the gym because gyms just reopened and I found myself on Thursday evening barely being able to move and walk. So, I definitely overdid it. So hot tip for you guys: just don't overdo it at the gym. Take it easy and take a lot of rest days because it could leave you virtually crippled.
Tracy
Good feeling though, that your body can handle that.
Wendy
It is, but I couldn't even raise my arms above my head, which is very classic. How about yours?
Tracy
It's been a very long week. I had a family gathering yesterday, which is why I'm a little bit dead today, this morning. Trying to stay awake. Big weekend.
Wendy
What was the event yesterday?
Tracy
It was my sisters’ birthday. Happy 21st birthday, sisters.
Wendy
Do the podcast fam know that you've got twin sisters? Wait, actually, I think we mentioned it in episode one.
Tracy
No, I don't think I did.
Wendy
Oh, really?
Tracy
I have twin sisters. When I do refer to my sisters, I always say it with the plural and some people think maybe I'm like making a mistake.
Wendy
But fun fact. Yes, she's got two, two younger sisters who look exactly like her. They're like mini Tracys.
Tracy
They won’t like to hear that. The cooler version of me. Anyway, so in today's episode, episode three, we are going to be talking about diversity and inclusion in the workplace. What it means, why it matters, and what we can do to help drive diversity and inclusion, or D&I, in the workplace.
Wendy
This is a really important topic for both of us and we were both really excited to discuss it. I think there's just so much we want to talk about today, but to set the scene, let's define what diversity and inclusion means.
Tracy
So we took a look at the Diversity Council of Australia, which has really good resources on their website, and how they define diversity is diversity is a mix of people in your organisation, so refers to all the ways in which we differ. For example, being an Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander background, your age, education, gender and profession. And inclusion is getting this mix to work. So, inclusion occurs where a diversity of people are respected, connected, progressing and contributing to organisational success. So, I think we sometimes refer to D&I, or diversity and inclusion, together, but it is important to know what diversity is and what is inclusion and how they work together. I think that's a really nice definition of it.
Wendy
Yeah, but the key point here is that everyone benefits from D&I initiatives. It's not just about helping underrepresented groups. So, I think that's a very important key point to keep in mind throughout this episode.
Tracy
Yeah. So, when we were doing our research for this episode, I found a really interesting diagram. Some of you might have heard of it, but it's the privilege wheel, or the power wheel. So, we'll put this in the show notes. It's really interesting. So, it's a wheel that has segments of the different intersecting variables in identity. So, the closer you are to the middle, the more privileged you are in a certain sphere of your identity. For example, there's citizenship, gender, sexuality, ability, skin colour, age, seniority, experience, language, indigenous, formal education. So, we took language for an example. The closest, I guess vector to the middle, which is privilege, is English speaking. So even things like language, you can be privileged because you can speak English compared to other people who don't and speak other languages. So, thought it was a nice little diagram for you to take a look at to see how, you know, different identities intersect with each other and how it plays a role in diversity. When we talk about diversity, we're not just talking about cultural diversity, we're not just talking about gender, sex. We're talking about a broad range of factors. And this diagram was really helpful. So, we'll just put that in the show notes as well.
Wendy
Yeah, and these factors really play a part in not just your social identity, what race you identify with etc., but also in your professional identity as well. So how that plays out in the workplace, and I think this is a good point for us to discuss why D&I is important in the workplace. So now that you have all the facts and we've kind of set the scene of what we're talking about today, Tracy, why don't we share a little bit about our experience with diversity and inclusion?
Tracy
I feel like this has been pretty recent for me, in terms of I never really thought about diversity in a workplace going into a workplace. It’s not something you really think about, that you're going to think, ‘Oh, how diverse is my workplace going to be?’ But the more that I'm in the industry, that's something that's coming to the forefront for me. I think in the media, we're talking more about diversity and inclusion, that it's making me think about how diverse is my workplace, are the workplaces I've been in. And when I really dig into it, to be honest, I don't really know what diversity and inclusion policies that my workplaces have had. It's more so a feeling that I have in the workplace, whether I belong or not.
Wendy
Yeah, I definitely agree with the concept of belonging. Even though a lot of the times I think in big organizations you relate D&I to the team that puts those policies in place in order to push the boundaries and ensure there's greater representation in the workplace, but also making sure that they celebrate like specific holidays or celebrate very significant dates in the calendar year. But I think D&I for me personally really drives the way that I bring myself to work, the way that I operate day to day and the decisions that I make. And I think you don't really consider what the policies of D&I are in your workplace until you have a bad experience.
Tracy
Yeah, that's true.
Wendy
I've been lucky enough never to have had a direct, I guess, discrimination experience. But I have had instances where I questioned my credibility and whether or not it was related to my race. So, taking a step back, there was kind of this moment in one of my previous jobs where I was a junior designer and the person who was in charge didn't really want to speak to me because she said that I wasn't a senior designer. I wasn't a senior designer and she asked for a senior designer. I started thinking about all the things that related to that statement. So, I was thinking, is it because I'm junior or is it because I'm Asian and I'm submissive? And maybe that's why they don't want to work with me? Is it because of the way that I look, the way that I speak?
Tracy
Did you have prior interactions with her before? Is there a reason for why she did that?
Wendy
No. This was the first time I had ever met her, and she was a woman in leadership as well. And I was just really taken aback because I actually hadn't even said like two words. I just introduced myself. And so, I guess having that experience made me really question my position and the agency that I had in being a person or a designer who was capable of doing the work. That was the only time I really had an uncomfortable experience, and I think that was when I started to think about my identity in the workplace and whether or not other people who look like me and sound like me had the same experience as well. But yeah, that's I guess as far as my experience is go in terms of bad experiences, have you ever had anything?
Tracy
I think like obviously nothing dramatic, like no bad experiences in terms of people being racist or anything like that, nothing crazy like that. But kind of what Wendy was saying about the feeling of belonging. I think I do feel, especially at the beginning of a new job sometimes, I do feel like I don't belong, like I have no one to relate to, no one that looks like me, sounds like me. And then feeling like I almost need to put on a more professional version of myself up in the workplace like I'm more proper, not from the ‘area’ type of workplace. So, then I do feel that pressure because everybody around me are people that I can't relate to as much. So, it's more, I think, subtle. But I've also had situations where I've been uncomfortable at work. For example, even with client interactions or with the workplaces, and obviously people don't have ill intentions but it's just situations where I feel uncomfortable. So, an example is, I was working on a project, this is a long time ago now. I was working on a project where we were organising a photoshoot and this photo shoot involved, I think, seven people that we were trying to cast as talent, and we're going to be shooting them in everyday experiences. And I was in a client meeting, I was pretty junior, so I wasn't making any shots or anything. I was just in the meeting to listen and the conversation kind of went from, ‘Oh, you know, we need to choose female males, blah, blah as talent’. And then it went to a point where someone was like, ‘We need an Asian talent because there are no Asians in this photo shoot’. And it was a little bit awkward because everybody in the room, everybody else in the room weren't Asian, they were non-Asian. And then it kind of became a conversation like, ‘Oh, who should we cast?’ Like, ‘Should they look Chinese?’ I don't know. It never went that deep. It was more like we need an Asian face in there and it just felt maybe a little bit tokenistic. I don't know. I was a bit conflicted because I thought, oh, it’s awesome that they are wanting more representation but also I felt a little bit awkward because I was like, should I say something, should I help steer the conversation because I am Asian? I almost felt like singled out subconsciously. I don't know. It's a little bit weird of experience.
Wendy
Yeah, I think it's like going back to the point of agency. It's like if you're the only person in the room who can relate to the topic that they're talking about, should you be an advocate for it? And especially thinking about the level of rank or your role, like if you're a junior, you're just afraid to speak up. You're like, what will they think of me if I speak up? Will they think that, you know, I'm a whistle blower or I just have this opinion and I'm trying to create drama? Yeah, but I guess there’s the ways that you can bring up things in a way that doesn't make other people feel like they're completely doing the wrong thing. It's like acknowledging that their intention was right, but there's a better way to do it, and I think that is more proactive than kind of coming off defensive.
Tracy
Yeah, I didn’t feel like they were doing anything wrong, but I just felt uncomfortable with that. That was my first reaction, was to feel uncomfortable, and I just didn't know how to react to the situation. Yeah, maybe because I was the only Asian in the room and they were talking about Asian talent.
Wendy
It's almost like they're talking about people as products.
Tracy
Yeah, maybe that's what it is.
Wendy
But also, sometimes I feel like they could be doing it to tick off a box. Like, do we have enough representation in there? And it's like, okay, if we have one Asian person. Yes, cool. We're done. Yeah, right. But I guess what we want to understand more about is like, what are the conversations that people have, what are the decisions and questions that they have in mind in helping them make these decisions?
Tracy
Yeah, it's almost like it's not just about ticking a box, but you need to continue to tick that box. Like it's not just a one-off type thing, right? I think in all the workplaces I've been in, we have like these, you know, respect at work trainings. And it's always like, we don't tolerate bullying, we don't tolerate racism, we don't tolerate blah, blah, blah. It's a mandatory training to do at the beginning of your career or your job. And then you tick that box and the conversation ends there. Whereas for me, what a diverse and inclusive workplace looks like is a conversation that's always ongoing and people are always trying to be better rather than just tick boxes.
Wendy
Yeah, I think there's like a difference when a colleague asks you something out of curiosity with the intention to learn versus asking you something because they're curious. But I don't know if I'm describing these in the right way, but you kind of know when someone is genuine and disingenuous when they're asking about your culture and wanting to learn more.
Tracy
That's true. And I think you can maybe in a business context or a transactional context, you can feel a little bit more, especially in work, making decisions with client work like that feels a little bit more transactional. So, you don't know whether they’re ticking boxes or being genuine about it.
Wendy
Yeah.
Tracy
So, what about in the work that you do and how does that translate?
Wendy
In service design, I do a lot of customer research. And so in the research process I'm often talking to a lot of people that I've met for the first time. In doing that, I think there are a lot of considerations that you need to keep in mind when going through the process of recruiting those people. Depending obviously what the thing what topic you're researching on. Sometimes you need to consider what their situational context might be. So, for example, do they speak English or do they identify with a certain race that may impact the questions that you ask or will the questions that you ask them during the interview be very sensitive to them? So being culturally sensitive is important as well. But on top of that, I've gone through a photoshoot process as well in one of my previous projects and it was on the topic of the LGBTQI+ community, and we're pretty much creating a publication about the community. And we had people coming in who we were featuring in the publication, who were coming in for a photoshoot. And in that experience, what we had to consider was whether or not anybody had any disabilities that we had to cater for because they were travelling into the city. So, I think we had one candidate who was hard of hearing. So I kept that top of mind when I met up with her because I kind of had to be conscious of not calling her when I wanted to confirm the appointment. Instead, she preferred that I would text her. And those little things I think you don't even think about when you're somebody who is privileged and you don't have any disabilities that impacts your day to day. And I guess acknowledging those and being conscious of those things that you don't even realise is really important and building that into your workflow as well. I think more and more each day, depending on what you're working on, those things will come to play at the strangest of times and it'll make you really realise that as someone who doesn't struggle with any of those things, you realize how privileged you are?
Tracy
I feel like we just make assumptions that everybody has the same privileges as us and we don't know. Like some people might have disabilities that we're not aware of until we we're kind of confronted with that. Then it's like, oh, like the assumption I made was wrong and I shouldn't have made that assumption.
Wendy
Yeah. Even like assuming that all the research participants that we include are going to be English speaking. Yeah, that's something that you have to like take in the recruitment process. So, checking with those people, do you speak English as a first language? That's a requirement. And if they don't speak English as a as their first language, is there any kind of services that you can incorporate to assist with that process, such as translation services? So, I guess those are some ways that I incorporate it in my day to day and even just being conscious about those things and making sure that there's at least one person in the room saying, have we ensured that we've gotten an equal amount of males, females or people who identify as non-binary etc.? Those things are super, super important, and I guess I'm still learning day to day how to keep them top of mind.
Tracy
Yeah, I was going to ask actually, how did you start thinking about these things? Were there people in your workplace that kind of reminded you about these things? I feel like even me, like when I organize photoshoots and things, I don't even think about those things, which is like, kind of a wake up moment, right? Like, oh, there's so much to think about outside of the stuff you assume that's normal.
Wendy
Yeah, I think I have only learned through experience. It was only through that one project where I was helping with the process of creating this LGBTQI+ publication. And I remember I was feeling, I guess, a bit scared before starting that project because I was like, I don't know much about the LGBTQI+ community, but I do want to learn more about it and how I can become a better ally. And so it was only through that experience that I realized that there are just so many considerations that you have to think about, even in the context of just a photoshoot, which you think on surface level you think it's so simple, but there are so many different factors that you need to consider. And I think if you're surrounded by people who live and breathe D&I or who are really familiar about the policies that surround it, or ways to embed it in the ways that we work, you'll become more conscious of it.
Tracy
Yeah, I think so. I can relate in terms of like even small projects I work on, I really try to embed a little bit more of that. So, I'm working in advertising. Obviously, we work with a lot of designers, we work with a lot of visuals and images. And if I'm in a place when I'm briefing something in and I'm selecting visual inspiration from our designers, I always do try to include a diverse range of images. And it's not just like, I don't know, white Australians. I always try to make sure that the pieces that are going out into the world have a little bit more diversity in what people are seeing, like not choosing stock images of just the same people over and over again, but choosing people who are actually represent what the Australian population looks like. I feel like you might have similar experiences as a designer. Do you make conscious choices about what to put in the materials you're designing?
Wendy
Yeah, 100%. I think we have those discussions as a team when thinking about things like imagery, but also on top of that, it's like thinking about the language that we use, making sure that it's inclusive, but also ensuring that all the kind of visual aspects that we use, for example, I'll use colour as an example. Making sure that the colours that we use are actually accessible. What that means is making sure that if somebody is has vision impairment, making sure that those colours are able to be seen by them. And I guess like if I speak quite simplistically about it, like using neon colours is going to be difficult for visually impaired.
Tracy
Like red backgrounds.
Wendy
Or red backgrounds and white on red backgrounds or like black text on a really dark blue background. There's actually tools out there to help you kind of test the accessibility of those colours. So, it can be really, really detailed and complex, but it also can be really, really simplistic in the way that you approach D&I and the decisions that you make in the design.
Tracy
There are so many facets to it. Like we started off talking about cultural diversity, but now it's like we're talking about ability, like disability/ability, and it's just so much, like there's so much out there and so many small steps we can take in so many different facets. It’s enormous.
Wendy
Yeah, for sure. And what I do consciously now, given the experiences that I've had, and which has obviously broadened my knowledge about the things that we need to consider, I always make sure that if I realise we haven't done the right things from a D&I perspective, I'll speak up and I'll share it with my team and I'll try and share as to why it's important to consider those things, because you never know what someone might be going through in a social sense, but also in a professional sense. And I think D&I has a place in the workplace and beyond to be able to provide the right support for people. And in acknowledging that everybody's experience is different.
Tracy
Yeah, I think it's a great example of what a culture where you feel like you belong can look like, people who actually consider those factors. And when they meet people for the first time, they make them feel like they're not an outsider but they feel supported and they feel like they're seen.
Wendy
Yeah, being seen is like feeling like your opinions are being valid, your perspective is being heard and valued and embedded in, I guess, decisions that are being made.
Tracy
Yeah. And one way this can play out is to make sure there's a diverse range of people with different lived experiences in the rooms, in the decision-making rooms. So not just people who come from the same background and have the same experiences, but making sure that the people who are making decisions, you're involving people that represent the organisation and the people you actually can impact with these decisions. So, it reminds me of a really good example of something that I've experienced previously in a workplace. Chinese New Year, or Lunar New Year, was coming up, and we wanted to celebrate it by giving some gifts to our clients. And I thought that was this was a really nice gesture because it is a workplace that really loves to tries to be inclusive and tries to celebrate different people's different cultures. But when I received an email, the email was like, ‘Hey, we want to celebrate Chinese New Year and we're going to be sending out fortune cookies to all our clients to celebrate this event’. And instead of me thinking, ‘Oh, that's such a lovely gesture’, my immediate thought was ‘Fortune cookies?’ That doesn't feel right because my family celebrates Chinese New Year or Lunar New Year, and I've never once had a fortune cookie with my family in my life. I don't even know where you would buy fortune cookies. It's just not traditional in our culture. And I kind of just sat there and was like, oh, should I say something to the team? I know it's a really good gesture, but maybe the decision was made a little bit too quickly and there are other ways that they could celebrate this holiday or this event rather than sending out fortune cookies. So, I did my research and as I expected, fortune cookies aren't actually Chinese. They don't come from a Chinese heritage. I think the story is a Japanese businessman actually brought it to America and it's mainly sold in Chinese restaurants in the US. So really not representative of everybody else's, how they celebrate Chinese New Year.
Wendy
Yeah, it sounds like it was just became or it is now like a novelty item.
Tracy
Yeah, I think so. It's quite westernised. And I also like when I think fortune cookie, I think of the stereotypical like Chinese stereotype, like bamboo hat, you know, like Chinese fortune cookies, like, I don't know, it just brings me back not good vibes.
Wendy
I think the fact that you had like a bad gut feeling about it was a sign that you needed to do something about it.
Tracy
Yeah, I tried to put myself in the feet of the people receiving it. If I was on the client's end and they sent me a package of fortune cookies saying ‘Happy Chinese New Year’. Like, first of all, I would be like, oh, that's a little bit stereotypical – fortune cookies. Maybe the use of Chinese New Year isn't right either because I know not just Chinese people celebrate Lunar New Year, so I think that's a more correct term. So, what I did was I spoke to the team and it was like, hey, this is a really great initiative and I love the idea behind it, but I think there are other things you could send instead of fortune cookies, such as red pockets or, you know, those like lucky sweets, the red ones. Or even fruit. Like something that we actually do consume on the day of Chinese New Year or Lunar New Year. And not something that a lot of people will question, why am I getting this?
Wendy
Yeah, something that is a little bit more intentional and more well thought out.
Tracy
Yeah.
Wendy
And I think if you were to review or reflect on that situation, it's kind of like if they had somebody who was from a Chinese background or somebody who did celebrate Lunar New Year in the room while they were making those decisions, the whole thing kind of could have been avoided.
Tracy
Exactly. I think so. And like, the team felt so bad, they were like, oh my gosh, I didn't even realise that it might be offensive to some people. The decision was kind of like, let's can it, it's not right to send a gift out that's not fully researched and has not involved people who actually celebrate the occasion, which is like pretty brave decision on their behalf. I think they already had gone into production so I was very happy they did that and I was very proud they did that. And the decision was, next year we will bring in a team of people who actually celebrate Chinese Lunar New Year to come up with a more authentic gift to give to your clients.
Wendy
I think what you did that was really good was the way that you framed your response and the sort of language that you used and the tone of voice. You kind of like, you know, I understand your intentions, but this may be a better way to do it, and this is why. And I think when you go with that intention of sharing the opportunity to improve what is occurring, people see it more as a way to learn. Rather than, oh, my God, somebody's attacking our campaign.
Tracy
Yeah, exactly. Like it was more of a collaborative approach. I want to work together with my company and my organisation to make sure that the decisions they're making also represent people who aren't in the room.
Wendy
Yeah, and I think it just goes to show that in the workplace, there are so many things that you can do to improve D&I, whether if that's at an individual level, but also as an organisation as a whole. And I think I've been a part of several organisations that are various sizes. In big organisations, there's actually like a dedicated D&I team who exist basically to drive better initiatives in the workplace and get the right people involved to do things such as celebrate national holidays, make better policies and put them in place in the workplace to ensure D&I is being threaded through everything that they do. But there's also things that we can do at an individual level. And I think what you just shared, Tracy, is just one of many examples of things that you can do. And all you did was really respond to something and had a conversation about the team, but that had drastic impact.
Tracy
Yeah, it had a big impact and I was so relieved I actually said something because I don't want to cause any trouble.
Wendy
Yeah, and it goes back to just how you approach it, because you could have definitely sent a really angry email like, you're offensive, you're racist. You could have been so angry about it. Yeah, but you weren't. And I think that's so much more productive in the way that you approached it than kind of just being reactive.
Tracy
Yeah, I think it comes back to just understanding or trying to appreciate their intentions. If their intentions are good, then you can learn together and help each other improve.
Wendy
Yeah, and just through my own experiences of ways that I'm trying to get better at being a better D&I advocate I suppose is putting my hand up for things such as being involved in the LGBTQI+ project. I think putting your hand up to be involved in things that make you uncomfortable so that you can become a little bit more educated and comfortable with being an ally, being able to do things like that and put your hand up for that I think goes a long way and I highly encourage everyone to kind of get involved and speak up when things are uncomfortable as well.
Tracy
And even like sending things to your management team, or your HR, People & Culture team that you think might be cool. So, like I've done that in the past where I've seen really cool initiatives about gender representation in advertising or cultural representation in advertising, and there are like pledges that companies can sign or agencies can sign, and I've in the past, sent the email to my HR person. I was like, hey, this is a really cool initiative, maybe we should get on board. And that's led to a really good conversations within the workplace as well.
Wendy
Yeah, you never know what kind of small action can eventuate into and I often amongst my team also we share resources that may help us improve the way that we approach things such as research. So, there are tools that have been created out there to help you build this into the way that you work. So, for example, for design, there's tools like the colour checker to ensure that your colours are accessible. That's a very simple example, but very, very impactful in the long run.
Tracy
And we also found this really useful research document about using inclusive words at work. So, the importance of language is something we can keep in mind in our day-to-day interactions with people at work or in everyday life, to be honest. An example is when you're talking about people with disability. Instead of saying ‘disabled employees’, try saying ‘employees with disability’. And they give an example here where we should only refer to an individual's age, cultural background, gender, etc. if it is relevant. Often, we refer to them when it's not even needed. So, an example here is instead of saying ‘Jonah, who is confined to a wheelchair, is new to the team and is interested in this project’, just try instead saying ‘Jonah is new to the team and is interested in leading this project’. You didn't have to lead with the fact that Jonah is confined to a wheelchair. So it’s just little tweaks in languages as well that is important.
Wendy
Like for example, something I know we both have been trying not to say is ‘you guys’, but it's such a like common piece of language that we have grown up using.
Tracy
Yeah, is a tricky one because I use it so much. I know I use it so much, but after I use it, I'm like, oh my God, shit, I shouldn’ have said you guys.
Wendy
But I feel like that shows progress, right? The fact that you're conscious of it and you're acknowledging the fact that there was probably a better way to say it.
Tracy
Yes.
Wendy
And how I've tried to combat it in a team setting is instead of signing off with ‘you guys’, I may say, ‘hey team’, ‘hey everyone’, or just using ‘you’. In a way that just suggests that you're being inclusive of everybody who's on the call, everybody who's in the chat room, for example. And I want to talk a little bit about the impacts of what happens when you don't use inclusive language. So, for context, the information that we're kind of pulling from is from the DCA as well. It was part of a campaign that they did called ‘Words @ Work’, and it was to encourage people to be a little bit more inclusive with their language. So, they said that when we use non-inclusive language, it contributes to stereotyping. So ongoing stereotyping and non-inclusive language harms people who witness it as well as the intended targets. So, it's not just the person that you're talking to or referring to it, but it's also the people around them that hear it as well. So that can impact them too.
Tracy
I think even it reminds me of even throwaway comments, people saying things like, ‘Oh, you know, this girl from accounting, she's really good at accounting because she's Asian’. Like when you hear comments like that, even if it's maybe not in a professional setting, that's so uncomfortable.
Wendy
Yeah. Like, I think that has an impact on not just the person that you're referring to, but the people around them.
Tracy
Yeah, and that's an example when you're bringing someone's culture in, when you're referring to them, like the fact that she's Asian somehow is involved in the fact that she's good at accounting. You should just say she's good at accounting. You don't need to talk about the fact that she's Asian.
Wendy
It adds no value to the conversation. And it also makes people feel like discriminated against. It can make them feel like really hostile. And in that instance, it could even make somebody question their job. I'm good at accounting and people think I'm good at accounting because I'm Asian? And so that might make a person feel like, damn, I don't want to do accounting anymore.
Tracy
But also there are people who are not Asian that are good at accounting.
Wendy
So, how can we be more inclusive with the language that we use in a professional context but also in a non-professional context? DCA has identified five steps to be more inclusive. The first is to keep an open mind and always be learning. The second is to focus on the person. So, this ties back to the examples that Tracy gave earlier. The third is to consider the context. So, how language plays out in a work context versus a non-work context. If in doubt, ask. So, knowing that you don't need to know all the answers. And if you're unsure as to what someone prefers in how they would like to be addressed, just ask them. And the fifth is to keep calm and respond. So, I think this ties back probably to your fortune cookie example, Tracy, that sometimes we've got unconscious biases and we say things without thinking them, but our intention wasn't to offend anybody. So, when someone kind of, I guess brings that up to you, keeping calm and responding in the right way and acknowledging that maybe you were wrong is the approach to take.
Tracy
Yeah, and I think on the opposite side, like having courage as well to call those situations out. If you feel like you're in uncomfortable situation, these things do take courage, but you know, it makes small differences that can lead to really big differences.
Wendy
Yeah, for sure. So, we'll leave the link to that resource in the show notes. It's a really great document to read through and I think it probably brings up unconscious biases that you have in the language that you use that you probably didn't even realise.
Tracy
I learned so much just reading that document. I was like, whoa.
Wendy
Likewise. It was like, oh my God, I do so many of these things wrong in my day to day. But again, it's the intention of wanting to learn and becoming more conscious of those things.
Tracy
Yeah, and we've spoken a lot about our personal experience with D&I, but we've also looked into more D&I research and there is a paper out there that we can link in the show notes that says, if you work in a an inclusive organisational culture, you're five times more likely to innovate, three times more likely to work extra hard, three times more likely to be highly effective, and three times more likely to provide excellent customer or client service. So, I think having D&I in the workplace, it really just benefits not just you and the people around you, but the whole organisation, the business, the client. Like it's good for everybody. I think diversity & inclusion is good for everybody and not going to put anyone at a disadvantage.
Wendy
Yeah, exactly. And it ties back to what we were saying at the very beginning of the episode, that it's for everybody and it doesn't just single out a single group.
Tracy
Yeah, so I think that's a good place to wrap up our episode.
Wendy
So it is our favourite time of our episode – dinner table questions. So, to start off with Tracy, what is one product you can't live without?
Tracy
Okay, I have an answer. It's going to be controversial because friends and family are going to be like, I hate this product of yours. It is my paper diary.
Wendy
Oh my God. I can totally relate to your relatives because every time I ask you if you want to do something, you're like, Sorry, I don't have my diary on me. I need a check when I get home. And it's like, Girl, you got a calendar on your phone. Can you, like, just use both?
Tracy
I literally get so much shit from everybody around me because I don't use a digital calendar except for work. So, my personal life is organised in my paper diary and if I don't have it on me, I can't tell you what I'm doing or stuff. I just don't remember.
Wendy
She literally has to get back to you as if like she is her own PA.
Tracy
So, I can't live without that because without it, I don't know what my life would look like.
Wendy
You do you? Nobody's judging.
Tracy
What about you?
Wendy
You know, I've actually been thinking about this because I think it was like one of the questions you brought up, like, ages ago. But I was thinking, like, floss. So like, it's actually what you're thinking about. When you brush your teeth and use the floss.
Tracy
Like a dance move.
Wendy
Not like pork floss. You know, you all Asians.
Tracy
Yeah, I get it. Yeah, floss.
Wendy
But honestly, I have been flossing since when I was young, I didn't take good care of my teeth. But when I became an adult in my twenties, I started flossing. I don't know why I just started, but I feel like every time if I don't floss or I forget my floss if I go away for a weekend, I feel really guilty.
Tracy
No, I feel guilty because I don't floss.
Wendy
You should, like the amount of gunk you find in your teeth. People, floss! But yeah, can't live without floss.
Tracy
Next question. What have you been watching or listening to lately?
Wendy
So, if you know me well, you know I love my k-dramas, but this is not a k-drama recommendation. This week I actually found a very, very relevant documentary to, I guess, this podcast. It's called ‘Found’ on Netflix, and it's about how these three girls who were adopted to America were kind of left abandoned because of the China one child policy. And this documentary is about their journey to finding each other, but also getting in touch with someone in China to help them try and find their biological mothers. And these are teenage girls as well. And I guess I felt really connected to it because they were speaking Cantonese throughout the documentary. It was a bit of English, a bit of Cantonese, obviously, and I felt somewhat connected to that. I would highly recommend everybody to watch it because it was very, very emotional. But opens your eyes up to what adoption or how adoption can impact families and individuals as well. Yeah. How about you?
Tracy
I've been struggling actually to find good things to watch lately. So, I'm in a mixture of things, maybe not as high quality as the things Wendy is watching at the moment. I'm watching The Bachelorette.
Wendy
Oh, really?
Tracy
Yes.
Wendy
I couldn't get into it.
Tracy
Well, to be honest, I'm just watching these things on the side. I'm not hooked. It’s just like things I'm watching for the sake of watching. So, I'm watching that. I'm watching Celebrity MasterChef, which isn't as good as the normal MasterChef because it seems like they’re just playing for fun. They're just all cooking for fun. And I also started episode one of You season three, and I don't know how I feel about it either. So really, if you guys have recommendations for me, please send them through. Because the things I'm watching right now, they're not it.
Wendy
Tracy, if you could invite three people, famous or not, to a dinner party you're hosting, who would they be?
Tracy
So, I've thought about this because I feel like everybody asks this question.
Wendy
Really? No, I've never been asked.
Tracy
Okay. I don't know. Maybe it's just like a common, I don't know, icebreaker or what not. But I would love to get three generations of my family. My grandparents’ parents, then their parents and then their parents.
Wendy
Wow.
Tracy
Like, I just want to see my cultural ties and like the family that my family came from, what influenced them and is influencing me now. I think it will be so interesting to get that history because I feel like I don't really know too much about my family history. Maybe because there's a language barrier and I don't really ask. I don't really know anything beyond my grandparents’ lives. Yeah. So I think that would be interesting.
Wendy
That's epic. Now my answer is going to sound so basic.
Tracy
Is it Taylor Swift?
Wendy
No, I'm not a Swiftie anymore. I moved on. Yeah, but the first person I would like to invite if you're listening, Gemma Chan, come sit with us. I just felt like she was so captivating in Crazy Rich Asians, but since then I started to follow her on socials and just seeing her rise through the industry and also become a big part of Marvel's next movie, Eternals. That was massive, and she's just such an icon. I just think the way she carries herself. What a queen. So that's one person. The second person is Jay Shetty. I just think I'm obsessed with his podcasts On Purpose, and I think he shares such an interesting perspective on things, given his own life experiences of becoming a monk and then becoming a full time podcaster, amongst many other things. Yeah, love the guy. If you're listening, Jay Shetty, come sit with us. And the last would probably be Michelle Obama. I really found her so moving and just I think her character is just so likeable and she's so candid about everything as well. And I think being first lady to Barack Obama and her experiences would be incredible to hear about as well. So, yeah, definitely not as interesting as Tracy’s would be.
Tracy
No, that'd be a really fun dinner table conversation party thing.
Wendy
So maybe I will host a dinner party because they will definitely come. Anyway, let's wrap up this episode before it gets a little bit more weird.
Tracy
So to wrap up, our question for everybody listening is, what does a diverse and inclusive workplace look like to you? Let us know in the Spotify question or on our Instagram.
Wendy
Yes. And I think you can also leave us a voice message on Anchor FM.
Tracy
Oh, yeah. Try that.
Wendy
If you're feeling brave, we would love to hear your thoughts on what D&I means to you. And also happy to be challenged on anything that we've said today. We are obviously still learning about this topic and we want to keep growing and sharing this with you also. So, feel free to DM us. Let us know any resources that have helped you. And yeah, let's start a conversation.
Tracy
Yes. Stay tuned for the next episode. Bye.